It's not about winning the argument it's about controlling the conversation...
...once you understand that, then you'll actually start to "get" politics and political strategy. Most of the time what these guys are trying to do is just throw us into a meaningless fight to keep us distracted while they do all the really horrific and corrupt shit right under our noses.
Usually it doesn't even matter who actually wins the argument, the winners are the ones who managed to get us to argue about that particular subject in the first place. The pundits who set the talking points, who keep the campaign on message.
I've made this point or this argument to I don't know how many people on how many occasions and it was with this knowledge in mind when I wrote the following post on facebook earlier in response to an image someone had shared (which I'll share below).
"All good points but I really wish the gay/lesbians would get off this talking point already. Stop telling us it isn't a choice, that's like you've already given up the ground that being gay is in any way worse or a less legitimate lifestyle than being straight, and that's because the religious right has set the tone of this conversion for way, way, way too long. Don't give the impression that if tomorrow they came out with a "straight pill" that would instantly make you straight you'd take it and so should everyone else and to hell with you wives/husbands/boyfriends/girlfriends or other differently gendered partners.
The argument should be and always should be, "SO FUCKING WHAT IF IT IS A CHOICE?! IT'S MY CHOICE AND NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!" I am pansexual and current choose to be in what I suppose you could call a lesbian relationship with another woman, I could be with a guy if I wanted to, I'm attracted to both, as well as people not on the binary ends of the gender spectrum, in fact what gender you are ranks very low down on my list of criteria when searching for a mate. The reason for my choice was simple, I fell in love.
Bisexuals/Pansexual actually get hate from Gays/Lesbians because they hate the fact that we tend to ruin their little "I was born this way, I have no choice" argument, but first we don't, and second it's a stupid argument. Who you choose to live with, spend your life with, spend most of your leisure time with, have sex with or whatever, is your business and only your business, and no one but you and them (and any metamours you might have if you're poly), should care or judge or stick their noses in, in any way. So please, because I don't have the reach to address the entire LG(excluding the BTQ) community, listen to what I'm saying, realise it makes sense, get off this talking point and encourage your friends to do the same, it's time we took the conversion back, it's time we set the terms of the talking points on these issues. Stop letting the church or the radical right fight you on their ground. Take the fight to our own turf.
"FOR SOME PEOPLE IT REALLY DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A CHOICE, FOR SOME MAYBE IT IS, BUT WHO GIVES A FUCK? THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, IT IS EXACTLY AS LEGITIMATE AS BEING STRAIGHT. IT'S LIKE FLIPPING A COIN, PICKING TAILS IS IN NO WAY A LESSER CHOICE THAN HEADS, WE WILL LIVE OUR LIVES HOWEVER WE WANT TO AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN SHOVE IT!" "
Annnnnyway after posting this, this then led into what could be politely described as a discussion with my other half but would probably be more accurately described as one of my occasional rants. Her response was that she hoped I was blogging this or writing it down somewhere and I said I do have a blog actually I've just only ever made like one post on it, several years ago. So I suppose I'm also attempting a reboot here.
Also this means that the rest of the entry is going to be some lightly edited copy pasta, and not really formatted like a post should be, but it will at least be preserved for posterity, and hell maybe somehow some people will stumble upon this and learn something, or agree with me or like me or something, stranger things have happened, I've been told. Maybe if I actually write a few more posts then I'll actually tell people I have a blog and link to it and stuff.
Samantha Jane
15:23
I'd love you to share the other post I just posted though (assuming it includes my comments because I really wish I could get that argument across to a wider audience
I really don't know why they insist on repeating the same line about being gay not being a choice
Topaz Azurite
15:24
I will do, I'm just logged in as my page at the moment
Samantha Jane
15:25
It's a talking point set by the religious right which automatically grants the notion that being gay isn't as good as being straight and no one would choose to be gay if they had a choice about it.
how stupid are people that they just don't get this?
the most powerful weapon in politics has nothing to do with winning or losing the argument, it's all about dictating the conversation.
Samantha Jane
15:28
The Tories have set the conversation to benefits, UKIP have made it about Europe and immigration. In the UK these are the only 2 things we're ever talking about.
It doesn't matter who wins, frankly they're pointless arguments because everyone on both sides has already made up their mind
Topaz Azurite
15:29
ahhhhhhh
Samantha Jane
15:32
In the mean time, tax loopholes for billion pound companies, funding for education, for the NHS, for mental health care, green energy, are all being completely ignored. There's no discussions, no debates, no news coverage and no one will be thinking about any of these things when they get to the polls this year. And labour are being so fucking retarded they're actually trying to outflank the Tories on the right on some of these issues.
Samantha Jane
15:33
Once again they've given up the ground, they claim they'll be even tougher with benefit cheats, and will have even better programs for getting people back into non-existent 0-hour contract, minimum wage jobs.
Topaz Azurite
15:36
Samantha Jane
15:48
Instead of fighting back and saying "No actually, you're talking bollocks, the math has been done and benefit fraud is virtually non existent, we lose only 70p out of every £100 spent on benefits to fraud, and spend considerably more money that that on unnecessary, and invasive and humiliating procedures and investigations to try and route out this tiny fraction of people who are willing to work hard enough to defraud the government for a sum of money that's less than the calculated amount needed to stay above the breadline. If we want people to get jobs we need to make jobs, we need to stimulate the economy, we need to invest heavily in infrastructure, fuck austerity, fuck the national debt, debt has never been cheaper, there as never been a better time to borrow a shit ton of money and build the roads and highspeed train tracks and bridges and office blocks and apartment complexes and green energy plants, solar or wind or nuclear, needed for our country to grow into over the next decade as we head towards a population of 100 million. And if we want anyone to have a job in 10 years as a global developing world population of roughly 3 billion people are becoming better and better educated and offering cheaper labour for more and more complex jobs like computer programming and being doctors or surgeons, then maybe we should invest in some god damn education, maybe we should put our kids through university so they can compete in what will be a global and not a national competition for an ever reducing amount of jobs as robotics and automation continue to take the place of people in the all the various fields that used to employ some 80% of the populous. Maybe we should think about not saddling our kids with a massive debt just to get an education, before then expecting them to pay a 6 figure sum just to buy a home to live in, and maybe we should think about moving to a resource based economy rather than a wealth based one, because sooner or later basically everyone will have to be on benefits, and will be free to do whatever they enjoy, maybe we should start to instill in our children the joy of simply contributing to society just to make a better world, rather than slaving away for a pay-cheque. And because right now the richest 1% in the world control so much of the wealth that they physically cannot spend it, all they do by getting richer is literally take food out of the mouths of the starving by removing yet more of the small amount of the wealth that's spread among the rest of us.
Samantha Jane
15:51
Maybe we should talk about some of that shit, but no, the only left leaning party with any kind of credibility is the greens, and they're terrible communicators and the BBC are shitfucks for giving them virtually no airtime at all while following UKIP around constantly to see what funny funny thing they do next. And even the greens aren't talking about most of this stuff, because no one wants to think about the fucking future.
Samantha Jane
15:54
But I voted green in the last EU MP election last year, they thought they might actually stand a chance in our area, because in the previous election they'd gotten 9%, and with the way the proportional representation works in the EU elections, that means if they'd gotten 10% they would have gotten a single green MP out of our batch of 6? for this district. But this time round no, UKIP turnout was way up, Lib Dems got punished for making their deal with the devil and the greens got a massive 1%
Samantha Jane
15:56
And unless we move before the general election, the only party worth voting for here is Lib Deb, because we're way too orange here, and voting anything else will just help the Tories. But even the Lib Dems are centre-right now.
Topaz Azurite
15:56
gah
Samantha Jane
16:03
So like I say, it's not winning the argument that matters, it's getting to actually set the conversation. And a small handful of people are very, very good at it. They're magicians, they distract us from the other 98% of their horrific platform with just a little misdirection, "hey look over here, gay marriage, immigrants, the EU" Don't pay any attention to our tax plan that massively lowers estate taxes for billionaires, or capital gains taxes, or allows companies to trade freely in the UK while declaring a loss on their tax declaration because "Starbucks UK" has to buy its coffee and it's mugs from "Starbucks GmbH" and those essential ingredients are so expensive they barely make a profit on a cup of coffee, and after they've paid rent and employee's wages they can barely afford to stay in business. No don't worry about any of that shit, forget about the fact that we raised VAT to 20% thus raising taxes the most for the poorest in society, those who have the least. Those for whom a packet of chocolate digestives becoming 5p more expensive really makes a difference at the end of the month.
Topaz Azurite
16:05
fuck... are you sending/posting/blogging this anywhere? I think you should
Samantha Jane
16:10
no I'm just ranting, where would I post it, no one is interested in what I have to say.
I do actually have a blog, I made like 1 post to it about 4 years ago
Topaz Azurite
16:13
hehehe
Samantha Jane
16:13
Anyway what would I call it? "Why they always win and your vote (almost certainly) doesn't matter
Soooo err yeah, there you go, that's me ranting about what little I understand about British politics, and the way too much I understand about human psychology and behaviour. I'm not sure if I'm going to link this anywhere so I don't know if anyone will ever actually read it, but if you do feel free to comment, add to the conversation or just tell me why I'm wrong. Maybe I'll actually try and post here slightly more often but eh, I dunno, it's difficult especially when I'm trying to keep two different digital lives separate. I have this whole thing on Islam and the "liberation" of Muslim countries that I could get into, but well I've achieved nothing useful at all all day, and I'm kinda sick of this now, and it would take way too long to flesh that out into a proper post.
Usually it doesn't even matter who actually wins the argument, the winners are the ones who managed to get us to argue about that particular subject in the first place. The pundits who set the talking points, who keep the campaign on message.
I've made this point or this argument to I don't know how many people on how many occasions and it was with this knowledge in mind when I wrote the following post on facebook earlier in response to an image someone had shared (which I'll share below).
"All good points but I really wish the gay/lesbians would get off this talking point already. Stop telling us it isn't a choice, that's like you've already given up the ground that being gay is in any way worse or a less legitimate lifestyle than being straight, and that's because the religious right has set the tone of this conversion for way, way, way too long. Don't give the impression that if tomorrow they came out with a "straight pill" that would instantly make you straight you'd take it and so should everyone else and to hell with you wives/husbands/boyfriends/girlfriends or other differently gendered partners.
The argument should be and always should be, "SO FUCKING WHAT IF IT IS A CHOICE?! IT'S MY CHOICE AND NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!" I am pansexual and current choose to be in what I suppose you could call a lesbian relationship with another woman, I could be with a guy if I wanted to, I'm attracted to both, as well as people not on the binary ends of the gender spectrum, in fact what gender you are ranks very low down on my list of criteria when searching for a mate. The reason for my choice was simple, I fell in love.
Bisexuals/Pansexual actually get hate from Gays/Lesbians because they hate the fact that we tend to ruin their little "I was born this way, I have no choice" argument, but first we don't, and second it's a stupid argument. Who you choose to live with, spend your life with, spend most of your leisure time with, have sex with or whatever, is your business and only your business, and no one but you and them (and any metamours you might have if you're poly), should care or judge or stick their noses in, in any way. So please, because I don't have the reach to address the entire LG(excluding the BTQ) community, listen to what I'm saying, realise it makes sense, get off this talking point and encourage your friends to do the same, it's time we took the conversion back, it's time we set the terms of the talking points on these issues. Stop letting the church or the radical right fight you on their ground. Take the fight to our own turf.
"FOR SOME PEOPLE IT REALLY DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A CHOICE, FOR SOME MAYBE IT IS, BUT WHO GIVES A FUCK? THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, IT IS EXACTLY AS LEGITIMATE AS BEING STRAIGHT. IT'S LIKE FLIPPING A COIN, PICKING TAILS IS IN NO WAY A LESSER CHOICE THAN HEADS, WE WILL LIVE OUR LIVES HOWEVER WE WANT TO AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN SHOVE IT!" "
Annnnnyway after posting this, this then led into what could be politely described as a discussion with my other half but would probably be more accurately described as one of my occasional rants. Her response was that she hoped I was blogging this or writing it down somewhere and I said I do have a blog actually I've just only ever made like one post on it, several years ago. So I suppose I'm also attempting a reboot here.
Also this means that the rest of the entry is going to be some lightly edited copy pasta, and not really formatted like a post should be, but it will at least be preserved for posterity, and hell maybe somehow some people will stumble upon this and learn something, or agree with me or like me or something, stranger things have happened, I've been told. Maybe if I actually write a few more posts then I'll actually tell people I have a blog and link to it and stuff.
Samantha Jane15:23
I'd love you to share the other post I just posted though (assuming it includes my comments because I really wish I could get that argument across to a wider audience
I really don't know why they insist on repeating the same line about being gay not being a choice
Topaz Azurite15:24
I will do, I'm just logged in as my page at the moment
Samantha Jane15:25
It's a talking point set by the religious right which automatically grants the notion that being gay isn't as good as being straight and no one would choose to be gay if they had a choice about it.
how stupid are people that they just don't get this?
the most powerful weapon in politics has nothing to do with winning or losing the argument, it's all about dictating the conversation.
Samantha Jane15:28
The Tories have set the conversation to benefits, UKIP have made it about Europe and immigration. In the UK these are the only 2 things we're ever talking about.
It doesn't matter who wins, frankly they're pointless arguments because everyone on both sides has already made up their mind
Topaz Azurite15:29
ahhhhhhh
Samantha Jane15:32
In the mean time, tax loopholes for billion pound companies, funding for education, for the NHS, for mental health care, green energy, are all being completely ignored. There's no discussions, no debates, no news coverage and no one will be thinking about any of these things when they get to the polls this year. And labour are being so fucking retarded they're actually trying to outflank the Tories on the right on some of these issues.
Samantha Jane15:33
Once again they've given up the ground, they claim they'll be even tougher with benefit cheats, and will have even better programs for getting people back into non-existent 0-hour contract, minimum wage jobs.
Topaz Azurite15:36
Samantha Jane15:48
Instead of fighting back and saying "No actually, you're talking bollocks, the math has been done and benefit fraud is virtually non existent, we lose only 70p out of every £100 spent on benefits to fraud, and spend considerably more money that that on unnecessary, and invasive and humiliating procedures and investigations to try and route out this tiny fraction of people who are willing to work hard enough to defraud the government for a sum of money that's less than the calculated amount needed to stay above the breadline. If we want people to get jobs we need to make jobs, we need to stimulate the economy, we need to invest heavily in infrastructure, fuck austerity, fuck the national debt, debt has never been cheaper, there as never been a better time to borrow a shit ton of money and build the roads and highspeed train tracks and bridges and office blocks and apartment complexes and green energy plants, solar or wind or nuclear, needed for our country to grow into over the next decade as we head towards a population of 100 million. And if we want anyone to have a job in 10 years as a global developing world population of roughly 3 billion people are becoming better and better educated and offering cheaper labour for more and more complex jobs like computer programming and being doctors or surgeons, then maybe we should invest in some god damn education, maybe we should put our kids through university so they can compete in what will be a global and not a national competition for an ever reducing amount of jobs as robotics and automation continue to take the place of people in the all the various fields that used to employ some 80% of the populous. Maybe we should think about not saddling our kids with a massive debt just to get an education, before then expecting them to pay a 6 figure sum just to buy a home to live in, and maybe we should think about moving to a resource based economy rather than a wealth based one, because sooner or later basically everyone will have to be on benefits, and will be free to do whatever they enjoy, maybe we should start to instill in our children the joy of simply contributing to society just to make a better world, rather than slaving away for a pay-cheque. And because right now the richest 1% in the world control so much of the wealth that they physically cannot spend it, all they do by getting richer is literally take food out of the mouths of the starving by removing yet more of the small amount of the wealth that's spread among the rest of us.
Samantha Jane15:51
Maybe we should talk about some of that shit, but no, the only left leaning party with any kind of credibility is the greens, and they're terrible communicators and the BBC are shitfucks for giving them virtually no airtime at all while following UKIP around constantly to see what funny funny thing they do next. And even the greens aren't talking about most of this stuff, because no one wants to think about the fucking future.
Samantha Jane15:54
But I voted green in the last EU MP election last year, they thought they might actually stand a chance in our area, because in the previous election they'd gotten 9%, and with the way the proportional representation works in the EU elections, that means if they'd gotten 10% they would have gotten a single green MP out of our batch of 6? for this district. But this time round no, UKIP turnout was way up, Lib Dems got punished for making their deal with the devil and the greens got a massive 1%
Samantha Jane15:56
And unless we move before the general election, the only party worth voting for here is Lib Deb, because we're way too orange here, and voting anything else will just help the Tories. But even the Lib Dems are centre-right now.
Topaz Azurite15:56
gah
Samantha Jane16:03
So like I say, it's not winning the argument that matters, it's getting to actually set the conversation. And a small handful of people are very, very good at it. They're magicians, they distract us from the other 98% of their horrific platform with just a little misdirection, "hey look over here, gay marriage, immigrants, the EU" Don't pay any attention to our tax plan that massively lowers estate taxes for billionaires, or capital gains taxes, or allows companies to trade freely in the UK while declaring a loss on their tax declaration because "Starbucks UK" has to buy its coffee and it's mugs from "Starbucks GmbH" and those essential ingredients are so expensive they barely make a profit on a cup of coffee, and after they've paid rent and employee's wages they can barely afford to stay in business. No don't worry about any of that shit, forget about the fact that we raised VAT to 20% thus raising taxes the most for the poorest in society, those who have the least. Those for whom a packet of chocolate digestives becoming 5p more expensive really makes a difference at the end of the month.
Topaz Azurite16:05
fuck... are you sending/posting/blogging this anywhere? I think you should
Samantha Jane16:10
no I'm just ranting, where would I post it, no one is interested in what I have to say.
I do actually have a blog, I made like 1 post to it about 4 years ago
Topaz Azurite16:13
hehehe
Samantha Jane16:13
Anyway what would I call it? "Why they always win and your vote (almost certainly) doesn't matter
Soooo err yeah, there you go, that's me ranting about what little I understand about British politics, and the way too much I understand about human psychology and behaviour. I'm not sure if I'm going to link this anywhere so I don't know if anyone will ever actually read it, but if you do feel free to comment, add to the conversation or just tell me why I'm wrong. Maybe I'll actually try and post here slightly more often but eh, I dunno, it's difficult especially when I'm trying to keep two different digital lives separate. I have this whole thing on Islam and the "liberation" of Muslim countries that I could get into, but well I've achieved nothing useful at all all day, and I'm kinda sick of this now, and it would take way too long to flesh that out into a proper post.
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